Gout and drugs
If you have gout you have to take drugs.
The WHOLE idea of taking drugs is to KEEP them in your system so
they can do their work.
Doesn't do much good..or NEARLY as much good if you take the
drugs..then end up with the runs soon after.Bye bye drugs..haven't
had time to work..long enough..flushed out of the system down the
toilet.You with the runs..dehydrating(the WORST way) only INCREASING
your uric acid level.
When you need the drugs for attacks..forget the purine/diet
stuff.Eat what plugs you up..and takes a long time to digest.Sits in
your stomach..allows the drugs to get in your system/STAY in your
system..do their work.What you can add(to the uric acid level) with
purine is NOTHING compared to what you WILL add with
dehydration.PLUS the drugs are NOT in your system.
That is absolute crap!
And you know how that they were actually suffering from gout?
And you know they were free of gout how?
Your statement is absolute crap.
The part of this battle we wage here against the "I don't need
drugs" crowd, is that those who really don't need drugs, who are, as
was said, marginal or even had bad luck, is that they go away and
don't worry about gout again. It is rare, and the statistics say it
is under 2% of people, but that's fine. The rest of us come back and
have pain and have life altering attacks and allo allows them, allows
us, for I am among those who have converted, to get their life, their
self respect and their dignity back.
Gout hurts. Hurting all the time around your loved ones hurts worse.
Nothing hurts worse than the loss of your self respect among those
you love.
I fail to understand the point in debating drugs vs. no drugs. It's a
free country, do as you wish. I do understand the arguing tho. I've
never been on a chat list yet where there wasn't arguing, usually over
issues that the mainstream didn't care about.
If you choose the no drugs path, then perhaps this group has little to
offer you. You might find more useful info on a group for discussion of
meatless diets.
I'll take drugs! I'll take any help I can get, I'm in so much pain I'd
take something illegal if it fell in my lap right now!
Gran
This forum is ideal for discussion of alternate gout treatments.
Due to the $$$ involved - drug companies will never openly discuss or
reveal the "side effects", immediate or long term, of the accepted
treatments. My largest concern is the long time effect of colc... and
allo... I have no faith that any study will ever be done let alone
released on this mainly male disease. $$$ are spent on female health
issues because that is politically correct.
I also feel that taking drugs allows many with gout to continue to eat
and drink rather unchecked in the present. Long time maybe worse. If I
diet there are other benefits. Being a Christian I am not afraid to
carry a cross and suffer here and now. So avoiding alcohol and staying
away from foods that I may like is not a reason to start drugs.
Oh ye of disregarded knowledge....
You don't need to crucify yourself for gout. Diet makes up a very
small percentage of the purine problem and equation. The part that you
seem to ignoring is that gout is cause and effect related to your
body's inabilities to excrete the uric acid or is overproduction (the
latter most likely). A "diet" is a great thing to assist with your
gout, typically because most of us have a few extra pounds, which
stresses the joints and for overall health. The point that is driven
in time and time again is what a diet or any other snake oil can't do,
retard the production of uric acid.
Whats even more ironic is those in favor of the "non-drug" route always
bring up the examples of some handful of people or someone they know,
etc. Yet choose to ignore the statistics that are given to them, not
by the scientific community, but from people on this board, many people
they hear about, etc. that confirm that the drugs work for them.
I know that this post or any other post wont change your mind. Your
decisions seem to be based on blind leaps of faith. I hope you fall in
the rare small percentage that the "diet and abstaining from alcohol
plan" works for. If you don't then gout will break your spirit,
regardless of your religious beliefs. Good luck with that suffering
stuff...
~Joe
You can nuetralize the uric acid in your body by creating a akaline
condition in your body. Ity's called homeostasis.
I'm not disputing that the drugs work. Allopurinol works much the same way
as creating an alkaline condition in your body with fruits and vegetables
(commonly referred to as snake oil on this list).
Excect that, as with most pharma there is a price to pay.
To each his own. Your body puts out signals for you. Yes your ability
to process uric acid may be waning but that means that it's time to
change the way you live. Not just b/c you have pain in your joints.
Ppl that live long and healthy have a moe alkaline diet. Cancer works
best in an acidic state. The list goes on and on.
Hi!
Question;
Arnold!
I am at present suffering with an inflamed big toe which is really painful. (I feel like cutting the @#** thing off!)
I am taking Allo & Indomethacin drinking loads of water.
It is driving me to distraction & I can't concentrate on anything.
I have had the constant pain on & off for ages. big toe, hand, other big toe for quite a while and never really far from from pain.
Is their any fast track way to relieve the constant toothache like pain?
Any help would be very much appreciated.
Regards
Martin (UK)
I'm one of them I don't expect to have an attack ever again. But I
didn't use pain killers when I did. I and the other 3 ppl that I know
of are all surfers so maybe that skews the stats?
There's a lot you, your rheumy, me and all men don't know. I've
seen ppl spontaneously heal at the hands of another man.
It is bragging. You always tend to bring up the same shite. "I'm
a beeg, beeg athlete and I know there is only one way"
There's your ego showing again. I and all of the ppl that I know
who have overcome w/just diet are surfers so maybe it has something
to do w/the severity of the attack. Maybe even salt water? There are
soooooooo many factors that for one person to claim absolute knowledge
on one topic is absurd.
Sorry to hear that. I came down w/it this summer and had to take
the last 6 months off of surfing. I can walk now with no drugs so
I expect to make it back in the water next yr. Who knows, maybe I'll
have to eat my words and go on drugs? But I know other ppl who
haven't so expect the same.
There you go again... Thats good, I love a fighter!
Bull S__t.
Total and complete nonsense.
Neutralizing all your uric acid would make a big pile of urate that
would crystalize out and literally kill you. You know, statements
like this, are not even worth replying to but stupidity really angers
me today. Your stupid statement and suggestion as to how to treat
gout is dangerous. Take it to extreme and you can kill yourself with
it. People who have real gout have a storehouse of uric acid in their
bodies and an attempt to alkalinize that body will result in more and
more monosodium urate being dumped on the system. At least the uric
acid is relatively harmless.
Again, Bull S__t!
Stick a piece of pH paper in any fruit or any vegetable you can fine
anywhere and tell me what the pH is. Or have you also cancelled the
relation between Ph and alkalinity and acidity? Nice trick. Orange pH
3, apple pH 3.5, avocado pH 4.5, tomato pH 2.5-3.5
Allpurinol does not work that way. Just do a tiny search on
allopurinol and how it works. The lady who came up with it was
awarded the Nobel prize in Medicine.
I guess enzymes and active site blocking are not real either.
Your list does go on and on and today, because of the mood I am in,
I wish that if you do actually have gout, which I doubt, that you not
take allopurinol and take a lot of alkaline remedies....
It might be hard to limp over to the place you keep all that
alkalinity but good luck with it. You deserve the relief it will
bring.
How much Allo are you on?
You should ask for Celebrex and Colcchicine too.
Indo does work but it is pretty hard on your GI track long term.
First let me know how much allo you are taking.
I would like to check into your alkaline references.... where may I
read about this wonderful cure for gout?
I am taking 300mg a day of Allo. I have tried halving the tablet and taking half in the morning with food and the other half late afternoon...................
Mr. Gatsby, the Great that is,
lol
A few more questions before i haxzzard a recommendation
How long have you been on allo? and
How long have you been under attack?
Hi Walter......
I have been on Allo for about three months,
I seem to have a break of a few days then my foot or hand starts to twinge and I know that when I wake up in the morning I know its started again!!!?
I have a feeling it may be chocolate that triggers it. (I am a bit of a chocaholic)
I don't seem to get a full week without some pain in varying degrees!
At the moment my foot is throbbing, and I am in real pain.........
Martin
Are you speaking to me? If you are, you should include some indicating
text.
Maybe it's just a hangnail?
Very good advice. I would go w/brown rice as it is more complete.
ALso there would nothing wrong with adding any kind of fruit/veg juice
as long as you process the whole fruit/veg in a device like a vitamix.
Extend the fast for 3 weeks and you'll get even better results
Your wrong again and I guess you will continue to insist on showing
us your ignorance.
Brown rice can cause an allergic reaction. It is not used in the
cleansing diet and neither are the other things you suggest. The
theory that the suggestin is based on is that the body gets and holds
onto an allergic reaction that inflames the area and as long as you
keep irritating the area, amounts of things that you would normally
be able to deal with, get you, that is they sustain the allergic
reaction, when the area is inflamed. You have to eliminate all
sourses of allergy in the beginning and then add things slowly so
that when something that you are allergic to is eaten, you know what
it was that got you.
I agree w/your theory but the likelihood of someone being allergic
to these basic foods is very low.
Eating refined anything is horrible for your body. Especially if thats
the only thing you are eating. More of the same thing that got you
into this mess in the first place. There are no shortcuts, Walter.
Remember when mommy told you to eat your veggies and you didn't
listen to her?
You are more likely allergic to processed foods. You know. The stuff
you eat b/c you are unwilling tot change your diet so you have to
take drugs the rest of your ife?
No I think I'll stay in this one... "Shilling for allipurinol".
All I have to do is refute the statement that drugs are the only
way to cure gout and I've got several grown men running around
with loaded diapers. It's fun!
OPC73 = What a Dick!
No I think I'll stay in this one... "Shilling for allipurinol".
All I have to do is refute the statement that drugs are the only
way to cure gout and I've got several grown men running around
with loaded diapers. It's fun!
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Martin Boutot [INLINE]
m_boutot@...
You said it brother.
Walter Sidney Matthews <companion13@...
Thats funny. Over the weekend, 2 ppl have emailed me on this list
to confirm my assertation. Apparently they have been shouted down
on this forum for espressing their simple experience. How sad.
The fact remains that some ppl have eliminated the symptoms of
gout with dietary modifications only.
There are many truths. I'm simply offering my truth. I may be
in the minority but that doesn't bother me. I may even have
to say at a later date, that you were right and I was wrong.
That won't bother be either.
Your truth does not threaten me.
It's good for the ratings!
Martin, pick up your sippy cup, get back in your high chair
and simmer down. We are having a discussion here.
Ok, thanks for clearing that up. That makes sense. Personally,
I have been in constant pain for about 6 months. But I figured
out what the trigger foods were/are and I have steadily reduced
the pain and swelling to a point where I can now walk and don't
need crutches. I do reserve the right to use allopurinol tho if I
come to a point where I'm not progressing anymore.
Thats great. I'm not anti-allopurinol. I'm all for healing the sick.
I have just chosen this path for now b/c it seems to be working for
me and has worked for other ppl I know.
Hi all!
Can OPC 73 advise me on his trigger foods please.......??
I have been in constant pain for about 6 months. But I figured
out what the trigger foods were/are
Regards
Martin (UK)
Alcohol, red wine the worst.
Meat, seafood/shellfish more so.
I did a 3 week fast eating only brown rice, veggies. fruit and kefir
and then reintroduced foods 1 at a time...
[INLINE]
Hi! OPC ....I agree particularly the Shellfish which I love [INLINE]
I find white spirit (Vodka) not to bad, Whisky is a no, no,
What are the really safe foods?
Regards
Martin
Alcohol, red wine the worst.
Meat, seafood/shellfish more so.
They couldn't walk so they took tests at a lab. How does anyone
know they have gout?
They said they were. They surf in the ocean. I've
surfed with one. They don't have any more attacks
after having several attacks/year.
How does anyone know they are free of gout?
"opc 73"
OK Mr. oh so knowledgable "opc 73".
The probability is very high that if you, or any of your friends, had
done absolutely nothing about your gout, not changed your diet, not
altered anything at all and had taken nothing to help it, your first
gout attack would have lasted about 3 to 6 weeks. You would then have
a period of grace that would last about one year and if you had been
careful about your diet and had consumed large amounts of water after
the second attack and had continued to drink the water, you can
postpone the gout attack for two to even three years. If you are one
of those rare individuals who gets one attack and then nothing again
then it would not matter what you did, what you ate or what you
consumed because you would just not get another attack. However if
you fall into the broad category of people who are going to be
lifelong gout sufferers, then within that three years you wil get
your second attack. And, doing absolutely nothing will again allow it
to go into remission but this time, untreated, it will take from six
weeks to 6 months to go into remission. The length of time it takes
to get to remission is a clear and important indicator of what is to
come in the future.
When I say remission, I mean gout will go into complete remission and
you will even be able to eat a lot of trigger things in the remission
period.
when you try to manage your gout with diet you are playing a very
stupid and guaranteed to lose game. The problem is that your bodies
ability to rid itself of uric acid is deteirorating as you get older.
Why-Hell I don't think anyone knows why but the fact is that if you
are a gout sufferer the amount of uric you get rid of versus the
amount you accumulate gets worse and worse as time goes on. When you
play the odds with diet you are just putting off the inevitable which
is that eventually if you only eat white rice, the lowest purene
content food you can get except for perhaps processed sugar, you
still have a huge source of purenes which is your own body. Uric acid
in your body comes from the metabolism of DNA and RNA. The largest
source of DNA and RNA, more than 85% by the way in normal healthy
adults, is from decomposition of your own body. At some point in the
curve, you will be making more uric acid from your own DNA and RNA
than you can excrete and it does not matter what you eat.
Read the literature and then come back and discuss it intelligently.
One lives in australia, one lives in hawaii, the other lives in europe.
Spread all over the globe. The odds just went up.
Never said that. I have no "buddies at a lab". I'm theorizing the long
term side effect of allopurinol is brain damage.
That sucks. You should however find a way to take that chip off your
shoulder. But thanks for the info.
Bullshit. You'll respond.
Mr. OPC
I started a reply and a customer came and I had to cut my too long
message about the fact that a gout sufferer will gradually get less
and less able to get rid of the DNA and RNA breakdown product which
is uric acid.
From what you have written I have made the judgement that you are a
frightened person who is trying to deal with a terrible affliction
and that you are literally scared of allopurinol.
No emotion and no name calling, look it up. Look at the many many
case histories that have been written up and track people who have
lived a very long time with gout attacks, and the others who have
lived a long time with allopurinol and no gout. Oh yes, by the way,
look up trophi and see what pretty ahnds you are likely to develop if
you don't stop the accumulation of uric acid.
If in fact you are a gout sufferer, and if it is true that you have
had your second attack and that it lasted for 6 months, that is a
strong indication that you are likely to have a very bad attack when
it comes back. If you let it go for six months it is a foolish thing
to do because along with the pain that gout gives you, there is the
nasty fact that sodium urate chelates with calcium in your joints and
it actually sucks the calcium out of your joints. It can, and will,
remove so much calcium that you can literally break your joints with
vigiorous exercize. You cannot replace the calcium that has been lost
and those joints will have been dammaged forever.
You cannot alter your pH enough tomake any difference. In order to
alter your own internal pH that much you would kill yourself. Check
the pH of blood and within the limits of the O2 rich blood and CO2
enriched blood ranges, the pH of blood in a human being is remarkably
constant, regardless of your diet. Your whole body is a big buffer
and you are foolish to try to alter it.
If, as you suggest, you can alter the pH of your blood, and you
believe this, test it. Get the pH of a sample measured and then try
to alter it with diet. I guess, if you consumed lye, you might alter
it but not very long before you died.
It sounds to me like you are simply afraid. You are afraid that
allopurinol will have some bad effect on you and you don't want that
to happen.
However, unless you are able to face a gout attack cold turkey, that
is without drugs, the long term effect of the NSAIDS and the
Colcchicine, which most of us take when under attack, are all known
and all known to be significantly worse than allopurinol.
Take the time to read the statistics on allopurinol, what the real
side effects are, why it was invented and what to look out for in
case you happen to be one of the people who cannot tolerate it.
Most importantly, if you are presently gout free, that is if this is
a period of time during which you are not having an atack, it is time
to start your treatment. It doesn't hurt, it only takes a small
amount of time to take the pill and the result will be that you will
not have gout attacks in the future.
If you really have gout, you know that it robs you of all semblance
of human dignity. It turns you into a frail, angry, pitiful critter
that only resembles your former self and the older you get the worse
off you will get.
You can indeed reduce and in some cases reverse the effects of a gout
existence but the penalty is so damn high. All of us cannot actually
do it but in order to have a 50-50 chance of reversing gout, that is
if you are one of the ones that still has enough kidney function to
remove the uric acid, you have to loose enough weight to be judged at
least 10% under the target weight for a 22 year old of your height
and you have to consume large amounts of water. The fact is that less
than half of the people who try to control gout this way can do it
because no matter what their weight, their bodies just produce too
much uric acid. However, it you are one of those who can loose the
weight and who are not an over producer, then more power to you. The
problem with loosing weight, by the way, is that uric acid is stored
in the adipose tissue of your body, that is in the fat tissue, and as
you loose the weight you will be increasing exponentially, the urate
load on your system. So, if it is to be the trial at weight loss, do
it slowly and make sure you drink lots of water.
When you find that your diets don't help and you are in the middle of
yet another gout attack at 4 in the morning, you might just read up
on allppurinol while you sit with your foot up on a very soft
cushion. As you read, look out the window and appreciate another day.
The sun will be up soon.
Thanks for the post. Very insightful.
My father has gout and is on allopurinol. I'm not afraid to take
it, it's just that I would rather not if I can help it.
I'm actually in real good shape. I weigh 175 pds and can
swim 2 miles and work out approx 2 hrs/day so it has been
quite a shock that this has happened. But I should of guessed
as much as it seems it's highly hereditary. I also drink 3 liters
of water/day and my uric acid level came back at 5.5 last time.
I did however have a 10 yr period in my life where I abused
alcohol so maybe thats a factor?
I've also done quite a bit of reading and haven't read a lot
of the info that you are presenting. You guys should archive this
on a website somewhere. When you present it this way, it makes
more sense.
Mr OPC...
The fact that you are not over weight, in good shape and that your
father also has gout is not a hopeful sign. You can gut it out
without allo but why do it? You have the strong genetic disposition
for gout and the sooner you start on allo the sooner you will be free
of the gout monster.
Just flush your system now and get rid of the uric acid. I recommend
a three year treatment of 300mg of allo followed by no allo or
reduced allo till you start another attack. That should give you 5 or
6 years of clear sailing.
I want to comment on your statement about alkalanizing your blood and
I was not fair the the suggestion.
Your relatively nonsensical responses pissed me off so I was not kind
and for that I apolagize but it is important for all of us to
understand what is going on with this monster.
I checked into it and you are correct, that you can alter the pH of
yor blood about .15 to .20 pH units with diet. You have to maintain
that diet and it can get dicy to maintain it because your system will
adjust to bring thw whole thing back to the equillibrium point it
wants to be, but you can maintain it at that much of a differential
by eating ever icreasing amounts of alkalanizing foods.
It is true that you can do it.
Now lets talk about the consequences of what it will do and its
relative value.
First lets take the case where you are under attack. Not from
insurgents in Iraq but from uric acid. If you are under attack from
gout, swollen toe etc, and you alkalanize your blood you will be
driving more of the uric acid that is stored in your body as pure
uric acid, the form of the compound that causes you almost no
discomfort, into your blood stream. When you do that the the local
concentration of mono sodium urate, the culprit that causes you the
pain, will be driven up. In fact, if you look at the equillibrium
numbers, you will find that a change in pH of 0.1 will actually drive
the concentration of urate in your blood up by almost 50%. Now, if
you are trying to make your kidneys have more urate to excrete that
will do it but an increase in urate level, when you are already maxed
out at 7,8, 9 or even 10, and are also having a gout attack, will
drive more urate into the fluid of your toes and it will make your
gout a lot worse. What I am talkng about here is simple equillibrium
chemistry and I know abou these things. I have a PhD in Chemistry and
I am relatively widely published in respected Chemistry journals,
although not much recently, and what I am saying is absolutely
correct.
Increasing alkalanity when you are having an attack will drive more
urate into your toes and make things worse. That is why, in fact, the
old wives tale remedies for gout all have an acid as part of the
formula, Cherry juice loaded with vitamin C-ascorbic acid, vinegar,
acetic acid and lime and lemmon juice, cirtic acid. These acidic
potients have been known for thousands of years to provide temporary
relief for a gout attack and you should test it if you are under
attack. Drink a lot of lime or lemmon juice, vinegar and take vitamin
C and it will make things better as far as pain goes. It drives the
concentration of the urate ion in your blood down and that allows the
urate in your toe to go back into solution becaus e there is some
pl;ace for it to go. i.e. the urate depleted blood.
However, there is significant merrit to the other side of the
equation of your suggestion of alkalanization of your system in that
if you are not under attack, and you increase the pH of your system,
even a small amount, say by .1 pH units, you will indeed drive more
urate into the system and it will increase the overall rate of
urate/ml of urine that your kidney removes. However, you need to
understand that if you happen to be making your system alkaline as an
attack us starting, your diet might just be the cause of a gout
attack.
?Hang in there and give allo a try
make your gout monster go away forever. By the way, the drug
companies are not making very much money on allo. You can buy a years
supply by mail for just under $14 dollars and they ain't gonna make
much on that. Not compard too the $5 a pill they get for, for
example, Celebrex.
Anyway hang in there and keep readiung and while you read just get on
the train a while and see what the scenery is like. It is pretty damn
hard to enjopy the scenery when your damn foot hurts all the time.
Walter u have a big brain LOL...and I'm glad you do!
If I can clear all UA from my joints with Allo, stay on a diet that
introduces
the lowest amount of UA to my system, and my kidneys are functioning
well enough to rid my body of a base amount of UA (verified by lab
testing), then why would I only be good for 5-6 yrs?
I agree. Part of my reason for challenging your assertation was to
stimulate discussion. I've been reading arnolds glib replies to diet
for about a month and couldn't take it anymore. Too bad he's not
reding this email... lol
Thanks for hanging in there.