Interested in gout

Hi, everyone! I'm Susan, just dx'd today with gout based upon high
levels of uric acid in my blood. (doc said norm is 6.7 and mine was
7.6). I'm concerned from what I've read, though, that certain
things can cause higher levels, like caffeine, aspirin, and
diuretics. I started taking a BP med with a diuretic
just under a month ago (was taking w/o, but my lower number wasn't
coming down), and I also take a baby aspirin every day per doc's
orders. I also have a latte in the a.m. and the p.m. I also take
Topamax, which can affect the production of kidney stones (although
I haven't seen anything about this in connection with gout or the
blood test). The Topamax is for migraine headaches, and I take a
low dose (50 mg./day).
I'm wondering if I should either be 1) retested at a later date; or
2) have the fluid test done (from knee) to confirm results.
The dr. has prescribed allur*** (whatever), for me, but I've read
that it can bring on worse attack if you're in the middle of one.
I'm scared to take it now. I don't know if I'm in the middle of one
because I am always in pain everyday. Have constant foot pain, knee
pain, shoulder, neck, back, every joint I can think of.
Now, part of this is also due to osteoarthritis (OA) and in the
back, to degenerative disc disease (DDD). So, it's hard for me to
segregate which joint pain is associated with what. I never really
had any "toe" pain that I can recall anyway. I may have and just
thought I broke my toe or something because I'm clumsy and have
gotten clumsier in the past few months. I garden and am always
doing something to myself. (no, I won't give it up because it's my
love and I waited all my life to do it when I bought my first home 7
years ago).
So, does anyone have any suggestions on further testing and the
medication? Thanks so much,
Susan

Interesting new research on long-term use of pain-killers:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/5037350.stm
Chris Haynes

I have read on this site about how some of you drink Apple Cider
Vinegar and with what? how much of it?? and what is the ratio to what
you mix with it?
Do you just drink it during an attack? How many times a day?
Thanks,
Gypsy

Here's a BBC feature on pain relief from music:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/5012562.stm
I hope it might help someone.
Chris Haynes

I like to update my experience,
I was diagnosed with gout by chance in Jan 2003, -at age23- the blood
result was 10.4 urate
I have suffered from minor attacks (aggravated by the physical nature
of my job) then after 2.5 years taking 300 MG Allo, walaa, almost no
pain, I even started bodybuilding after a while and took mad quantities
of whey and milk protein and my urate was like 3.3
I'm not planning to stop the Allo, when I reduced my dose to 100 MG I
had my first Attack which gave me a taste of gout. I know Allo for life
might be dangerous for the liver but what the heck I want to enjoy
life. (I get headache sometimes from Allo and very little skin allergy)
live well.

Im 42 and have had gout for over 10 years. Even today I do not
alter what I eat, only when I have an attack.
My first few attacks the Drs say it was a sprained ankle. I kept
telling them How? I didnt do anything and I woke up having the
pain. So after several attacks they started treating it as Gout. I
have had the 24 hr urine catch and blood tests many many times in
which all show normal Uric acid level. Being in the Military we
seldom see the same Dr each time.... From day one until now I take
50mg Indomethacin when ever I feel pain coming on and that usually
does it as long as I cath it in time. If not IM DONE full blown
attack that can last 2-3 weeksbut usually about 10 days. I have
noticed its not really the foods I eat that triggers it but if I
dont drink alot of water then this triggers it, Also if I attempt
to loose weight and change the foods i eat like low carbs/low
calories this triggers it. Also I like to have 2-3 beers a day and
if I stop drinking for a few days then this triggers it. I tried
many times to monitor what I eat to see what triggers it and it a
puzzle for the first few years.
The first few years 2-3 years I only got it in my right ankle. One
time it was really painful and I just felt like putting a turinquet
on leg and cut if off, but I would never really do that. During
this attack I read about hot and cold treatment so I try th cold
treatment and put ic on it. I dont know if it was a coinicident or
not but the next time I got an attak it moved to my left ankle for
the first time and ever since that I get it in either ankle now.
The bottom line for me is I eat whatever I want (I love steak) and
try to at least drink a gallon of water a day and any slightest pain
i feel in my ankles I take my Indomethacin, except before bed it I
take the Indomethacin before bedtime and go to bed I will get
heartburn severly in which I will not be able to sleep for several
hours unless I have some Zantac at home and not everytime it works.
Oh one thing I never add or cook with salt becauseof High Blood
Pressure. Oh by the way I have a co worker who I never seen a
person have Gout so bad where hes excused from work for 30 days at a
time because of his condition and my be medically discharge from the
Navy....
Only want to share my experience.

This group has been a good source of information.
I'm currently in the middle of a pretty fierce attack. I was on
colchicine but it gave me terrible diarhea. I'm also on dialysis so
the diarhea made things pretty unbearable (it's a pain to be
connected/disconnected to/from the dialysis machine over the 4 hours
of treatment) so I stopped that. I've been on prednizone for the pain
which has helped a great deal. I've got the pain in both of my
knees. My doctor has me tapering off of the prednizone, but I think
I'm going to ask to kept on for a bit longer. The pain was pretty
intense.
I see that many say to drink lots of water. Unfortunately, I can't
really do that, part of the dialysis regime is to limit fluid intake
since the kidneys aren't removing most of the water. I guess I'll
check out the black cherry capsules.
Marty Sasaki

I had a knee attack that started over 6 weeks ago. It has actually
pretty much gone away for just a couple of days and then comes back. I
really thought it was over a few days ago and then I did a lot of
standing and cleaning Friday, and by the evening my knee was killing me
and has ever since. I think today is one of the worse days yet.
Is this normal and is there something I am doing wrong that is causing
it to come back after a couple days almost pain free? I am really
getting depressed and tired of hurting so much.
Gypsy

I am so confused with what is wrong with me. Last year I had an attack
on my foot and my Uric Acid with 8.0; that attack only lasted for about
a week. Now I have had a very sore and painful knee problem for over 6
weeks. My family doctor has told me since last year that I have Gout.
But my lab report was just sent to me and my Uric Acid is only 6.5!
Does this mean I don't have Gout? My mother had Gout.
It has to be some kind of Arthritis problem because I just woke up with
knee hurting and red-never injured it.
My question is what is some of your Uric Acid scores?
Thanks, Gypsy

dlangley, have your doctor do a uric acid level test, this will
determine whether or not you have gout...also, see if you can get a
prescription for indicin (also known as indomethacin), take that as
directed for several days and see if that relives your symptoms..In
the meantime, drink a gallon of water a day for several days and
sharply reduce your intake of red meat, kidney, red and other dried
beans, especially pork products and alcoholic beverages, particularly
beer...get back to me in about 3 to 4 days, hopefully you'll feel
better...

Hello everone, I am new to the group and I am pretty sure i
have chronic gout. My symptons started about two years ago with both
my feet swelling. The attack lasted around four or five days. This
happened three or four more times in the course of a year. The
symptons changed from there to shooting pains redness,and a feeling
of burning hot sand inside my feet, mainly towards the top half of my
feet. I have been to the ER a couple of times when the pain became to
intense to handle!
They blew me off pretty much,as they claim it is
bad circulation. Well to make a long story short, the pain is getting
worse,the only relief I get is when my wife massages them, although
these massages are not pleasant at the time. When she preforms these
massages,she, as well as I, can feel noduals busting up in my feet.
of
which brings on INTENSE burning and pain! But after she is done,
there is some relief (after the fire is gone) as it seems to loosen
them up.
Also I wanted to know if any one feels a
sensation of a burning liquid running inside there leg that ends up
in their feet,mainly after you have been in bed for a little while.
My question there?,is this uric acid running down into my feet,that
crystalizes and turns into the noduals I spoke of? Is any one else
having these God awful pains?

Hi list,
quick q. Are hot or cold compresses better for gout?
or neither?
thanks
dave

Helo

In my last three gout warnings and or attacks I have replaced meat with soy & tofu products and have had no ill effects at all. While I do not believe i would ever become a vegeterian, I have modified my diet to be at least 50% vegeterian and have had great results as to Gout. I have found a number of Soy & Tofu products that mirror meat products that are very good and have adjusted to them well, So I now eat a lot of Soy & Tofu every week. (If you have have a Trader Joe's store in your area, check out the Tofurkey and other fake meat products)

Note; studies are showing that cancer in Japan, especially prostrate cancer, does not spread / mestasize as quickly as here in america. It is theorized that the higher concentration of Soy in their diet as that was the difference in their body/blood make-up to ours.

I had read some newer research that legume, asparagus and other sources of either purines & of protien that are plant based are not as likely to trigger gout.

additionally during "warnings" as well as full blown attacks, i have gone to a. alkaline diet and found that for me, I either lessened or got rid of the gout completely. High on the list of foods that help to de-acidify you and return you to a ph balance are asparagus and carrots. Asparagus is usually not recommended for gout, but again, this suggests the new findings that plant based purines do not trigger gout may be true

Joe

I've had a couple of high triglyceride readings now.

My cholesterol is always normal though.

While I'm 95% certain my high triglyceride reading is to do with my diet, has anybody ever heard it being linked to gout, or gout being linked to it?

(on the Allo for a couple of months now, and starting to feel normal again, have had a couple of big attacks, including a really nasty one in my knee, but its gone pretty quickly, and I'm getting normal movement back in my joints for the first time in six months, stairs are no longer the ladders of hell they've been for a while, Uric acid reading is the low side of normal at the moment, which is encouraging).

I was wondering if anyone knows the effect of Soybeans on Gout? I
drink Soybean milk, eat the cheese (only melted tastes good) and now
eating more tofu because I am gradually eliminating meat from my diet.

The following gout poll is now closed. Here are the
final results:
POLL QUESTION: Please vote YES or NO on each suggested guideline for postings to
this Gout group. Many thanks to Terry for suggesting these. Guidelines which
receive a majority of YES will be implemented immediately following the poll.
Thank you in advance for participating! Fifth guideline: "No commercial
messages. This is not a marketing tool; the mailing
list is strictly for gout sufferers to exchange information." Would you like to
see this guideline implemented for gout group posts?
CHOICES AND RESULTS
- YES, 19 votes, 100.00%
- NO, 0 votes, 0.00%
For more information about this group, please visit

The following gout poll is now closed. Here are the
final results:
POLL QUESTION: Please vote YES or NO on each suggested guideline for postings to
this Gout group. Many thanks to Terry for suggesting these. Guidelines which
receive a majority of YES will be implemented immediately following the poll.
Thank you in advance for participating! Second guideline: "Postings must be
clear and comprehensible." Would you like to see this guideline implemented for
gout group posts?
CHOICES AND RESULTS
- YES, 15 votes, 88.24%
- NO, 2 votes, 11.76%
For more information about this group, please visit

The following gout poll is now closed. Here are the
final results:
POLL QUESTION: Please vote YES or NO on each suggested guideline for postings to
this Gout group. Many thanks to Terry for suggesting these. Guidelines which
receive a majority of YES will be implemented immediately following the poll.
Thank you in advance for participating!
First guideline: "Postings must be on topic, about gout and closely related
subjects."
Would you like to see this guideline implemented for gout group posts?
CHOICES AND RESULTS
- NO, 1 votes, 4.17%
- YES, 23 votes, 95.83%
For more information about this group, please visit

The following gout poll is now closed. Here are the
final results:
POLL QUESTION: Please vote YES or NO on the each suggested guideline for
postings to this Gout group. Many thanks to Terry for suggesting these.
Guidelines which receive a majority of YES will be implemented immediately
following the poll. Thank you in advance for participating! Third guideline:
"Postings must be civil and polite. No bad language, name-calling,
or flames." Would you like to see this guideline implemented for gout group
posts?
CHOICES AND RESULTS
- YES, 18 votes, 94.74%
- NO, 1 votes, 5.26%
For more information about this group, please visit

The following gout poll is now closed. Here are the
final results:
POLL QUESTION: Please vote YES or NO on each suggested guideline for postings to
this Gout group. Many thanks to Terry for suggesting these. Guidelines which
receive a majority of YES will be implemented immediately following the poll.
Thank you in advance for participating! Fourth guideline: "Postings must be in
English. We won't be grammar or spelling
Nazis, but if there are enough grammar or spelling mistakes to get in
the way of clarity, the posting may be rejected." Would you like to see this
guideline implemented for gout group posts?
CHOICES AND RESULTS
- NO, 2 votes, 12.50%
- YES, 14 votes, 87.50%
For more information about this group, please visit

Hi, I'm new to this group. I have had gout for 15 years. I'm now 44.
Alas, there's a history of it in the family. I mostly avoid high
purine foods as far as poss. I no longer get chronic attacks in the
foot joints, but now have a more or less permanent problem with the
knees. MRI scan revealed a build up of crystals in both knees,
causing stiffness and pain as opposed to chronic inflammation. It
still hurts though. Not good.
Unfortunately I am allopurinol intolerant, so can't take that to
control my uric acid levels. So I'm reduced to popping Arcoxia anti
inflammatories three or four times a week, which I'm not happy about
either. They are much more effective and less damaging to the
stomach than old style NSAIDs like Voltarol, but given the recent
scares over Cox 2 inhibitors, I don't really want to be eating these
things on a regular basis for the rest of my life.
I'm also taking cherry concentrate, which has had rave reviews and
testamonials - but I have to say I've been taking it religiously for
three months now, and it has made no perceptible difference as far
as I can tell.
Have been seeing an allegedly eminent rheumatologist for 3 years - I
was referred to him because he could supposedly get me a supply of
oxypurinol - an alternative for people who can't tolerate
allopurinol. He was meant to be able to get this on a named patient
basis from the States, as he was involved in some kind of clinical
trials. Anyway - he couldn't. Now he gives me the occasional steroid
injection into the knee to keep the pain at bay for a couple of
weeks.
However, he has talked about a new drug called Febuxostat, which is
in Phase 3 clincial trials in the States, and which is another
alternative to allopurinol. But I can't find out any info on this
drug - there's scant info on the web, even on the website of the
drug company concerned. And if it's in phase 3 trials now, I have no
idea when this means it may eventually come onto the market.
Does anyone know about this?
Said eminent rheumatologist is incredibly blase about the whole
thing. He keeps saying it's only a matter of time before they
develop the right drug. He's being saying that for three years now!
It doesn't help me sleep at night, or cope with the near constant,
persistent pain in the knees.
Any advice or suggestions?
Thanks

I have had a Gout attack in my knee for over a month now. It started
to go away and then flared up again. I have gotten 2 Acupuncture
treatments this week to see if that will help the pain. While I was
there today she told me the following: that Vitamin C + bioflavonoids,
distilled water, cherries, blueberries, and strawberries are helpful in
reducing the uric acid levels.
What are some other nutritional supplements that are helpful? and what
are not?
Does anyone else get Acupuncture treatments for the pain?

I am a fat funker in my 40's and of course the doc has told me to
lose weight to help the gout. To be honest I could lose 4 stones just
to look overweight, to be right for my height.
Now it seems to me that most diets do their initial weight loss
through dropping retained water. After that is up to each diet. I
know from when I have had food poisoning that you can lose a stone
and a half in one night (21 lbs for the yanks). However gout requires
more than usual levels of hydration. I have read the Cambridge diet,
the Atkins plan and a few popular other ones and they all state that
losing retained water is a big step i.e. dehydrating to some extant.
Given the choice I would rather carry the water than have a gout
attack. The choice seems to be: fat and fit or thin and gouty. I
would like to be thin and fit like I was 25 years ago, but hey ho.
Would do others think? Do you find that you have more gout attacks
when you slim?
Regards
Harrison
PS Apart from Kevin Lee 53 why are there so people on this group with
names derived from "Harris"?

Hi All:
I noticed a hard lump on the corner of my elbow approx. 1 week ago. I
went to the doctor & she said that it could be a calcium deposit
resulting from Gout. Has anyone ever heard of such a thing? I have
not.
Thanks,
Cheryl

I've recently been told that if a low-purine diet is not helping with
Gout symptoms, to try a low oxalate diet. I dont' know anything about
this and would like to hear the opinion of the group on this subject.
TIA!
Billow

I've never heard of gout in the finger joints, but if it would hit in toes
or knees, why not fingers? I've been diagnosed with arthritis in the
fingers since I got the gout. They hurt alot, but then I do alot of typing.
I'm so sorry that you're in so much pain. Try the cherry pills, two, three
times a day. You buy them in the health food store, and as painful as it
sounds, see if they'll give you a shot of cortisone into the finger joint.
It sure helps my toe when the gout acts up. It's the fastest cure I've
found.
Drink lots of water and watch your diet...I really think alot of this has to
do with diet and and things they put into our foods.
Regards,
Nancy Korb

About five months ago, my left ring finger started swelling up. It
developed a little red knot on the left side right below the nail.
About two months ago, I could not bend it enough to write and it
became increasingly sore. I have feeling at the tip and all the way
down. It is only swollen at the joints and nowhere else.
I went to the Dr. and he said "I have never seen anything like
this" I went to get an MRI. The radiologist said it looked like an
infection in the finger that is affecting the bone. The doctor had
his partners look at the MRI and x-rays and none of them had seen
anything like it. (These are well know orthopedics in town)
So, they have arranged for me to have an appointment at Duke
University Medical Center with a specialist. So they sent me to
Duke. After several visits, they said I had arthritis and to take
12-15 ibuprofren a day.
That did not good -- the pain was unbearable. It does not hurt all
the time --- only when something touches it (if it is the cat
rubbing up against me or something like turning a sock inside out.)
So I went to another doctor who said he thought it was mycobacteria
something. He sent me to an infection specialist. They ordered a
bone biopsy and a tissue biopsy. Both came back negative for
infection.
A blood test was done at Duke for gout but it came back negative.
(I am almost positive they test for gout). I know they tested for
rheumatoid arthritis.
The infection doctor put me on Clarthromycin it is doing no good.
Has anyone ever heard of gout in the finger? Is there a urine test
that should be done?

Some of you may remember I posted awhile back hoping to get a
volunteer to try out comoderating. Thanks to Terry for responding!
This means your posts will not wait so long in the queue if you post
when I am asleep or away from my computer :)
Comments about his (or my) moderation may be sent to me at
xbeepx@..., as the posts on this list naturally need to be about
gout !
Speaking of the g word, I was recently asked in one of my other groups
what medications interact badly with allo, and I'm trying to do some
research on that tonight. Does anyone have any info about this?
Hugs,
Pam

Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
gout group:
Do you see a rheumatologist for your gout?
o YES
o NO
o Don't see them but am on the treatment they recommended
To vote, please visit the following web page:

For the first 30 days when getting the friendly bacteria built back up in your intestines you should take it three times a day. There are some made that are gastric bypass able (meaning it survives past the stomach acid before the bacteria are released).

From there usually 1 a day is fine along with some sour dairy, this is unless you are killing them off faster then a normal rate. Like excessive hot tub use, prescription drugs, drinking chlorinated water, or even work at a job with a lot of distillates. Then 3 a day would be a normal dosage always. If you ever have antibiotics it takes about 45 days proactively to get the number back up to a working level again.

I have had a gout attack in my knee for over three weeks but it is
starting to go away, thank goodness. I have an exercise bike that I
want to do. I tried the other day and it hurt at first but then I was
able to peddle for 15 mins before the pain came back and I stopped.
Is it good for me to exercise my knee if it is not completely pain free?

Hello Group, I wanted to share my "gout life" story update with the rest of you gout sufferers.

My gout attacks are bad. Really nasty, debilitating bad. I have it in my right knee. Once I get that

first 'Zap!' which is like a red hot sword being thrust into the knee, I have a pain for maybe 2-3 hours

that is sufficient to render me screaming, crying and unable do anything besides wanting to die.

For the next 2-5 days, I pretty much can't get out of bed without assistance and can't bear any

weight in the knee or leg. The entire leg from my ankle to my upper thigh can be swollen to almost

twice it's normal size. The pain is still on the verge of being unbearable and I can't really focus or sleep.

At the day 2-20 range, the swelling goes down to perhaps 20-50% above normal and the swelling is

concentrated in the knee down to my ankle. I can put a small amount of weight on the leg while

I'm on crutches. With enough opiates and pain killers, I can focus enough to read for short periods

of time, maybe 2-4 hours at a stretch. The longer I'm sitting up, the worse the swelling and pain,

so I need to lay down frequently which makes the swelling and pain dissipate some. In the past 4

months or so, I've never really 'fully recovered' to the point where I'm symptom free and able to walk,

bend, sit or stand for long periods of time without pain.

So gout is a major component of my life now and I've decided that some things need to change. Actually,
I'm in the process of packing and moving out of state with my girlfriends help. Gout has changed my life.
I know that I'll never be able to hold a "job" until I get my gout attacks under control, and based on recent
experiences, that may never happen. I just can't devote 10+ hours a day to getting ready for work,
commuting (actually it's not safe or even possible to drive when I'm in that first couple of weeks after the zap),
having lunch with associates, sitting behind a desk for 8 hours, stopping off at the dry cleaners on my way
home, etc. I just can't do it. I need to lay down every few hours and elevate my leg. The longer I go without
resting, the worse the pain and swelling. I'm lucky in that the nature of my work is such that as long as I have
a desk, phone and high speed internet connection, I could work from the moon. So, I'm going to do contract/
consulting assignments that are sufficient to pay my bills. I'm moving out of San Diego, and to Idaho. From
one of the highest cost of living areas to one of the lowest. The plan is to simplify my life. Since the cost of
living is sooo much less in Idaho, I don't need to make as much money. And interestingly enough, money
doesn't really matter the way it used to. At this point in my life, I'm into health and getting healthy. You will
be finding me at the gym, the health food store, cooking in my kitchen, hiking in the mountains and desert,
riding my bike, focusing on spiritual pursuits, playing with my dogs, swimming, yoga, etc. It's actually quite
exciting and I feel as if I've found a silver lining to this dreadful condition.

I feel that gout was a wake up call to get my life in order. At 45, I've gone through over 15 years where I was in
the top 1% by income in the USA. But with the exception of being able to date more attractive women, it's
not really made me that much more happy. I'm the most happy when I'm outside in nature. I always have been
my whole life. And I'm often miserable when I'm inside for extended periods of time sitting under fluorescent lights.
Had it not been for gout making it painfully clear that I am absolutely physically unable to hold a job, this revelation
may not have ever struck home and propelled me to make the change. Oddly, I'll bet that by simplifying my life
and cutting back on work by half or more ~ I'll live much longer. Being totally sober is also kind of cool. So many
more hours in the day to do meaningful things. So in the end, gout has not ended my life; it's given me a new
beginning. In an odd way I feel grateful.

If anyone is passing through Southwest Idaho this summer and wants to partake in some of the best white water
river rafting in the world, let me know.

OK, that was a nice break, sorry if it was kinda corny but it's my truth. Back to packing.. fortunately all I have to do
is sort papers as I make the financial changes to make my life as simple as possible.

Peace,

Tom

Bank holiday in the UK today (Monday), so we had a fair bit planned, some
fence painting and patio cleaning in the morning, a cycle ride in the
afternoon, cinema in the evening.
That was before I woke up with a left knee so racked in pain that I felt
like chopping my leg off at the hip.
Two arguments and 200mg of diclofenac later, with me being crabby because of
the pain and the wife disappointed that our day was wrecked, we've settled
on the holiday being totally wasted.
(I am on Allo by the way, 400mg a day, have been for about six weeks now,
after my last gout free period of about a year it turned round and bit me
good, and that was the last straw really, decided hard drugs was the only
thing I had left).
Have to say, early on in my gout career there was a definite dismissing of
my condition from the wife. She blamed my weight gain for my gout, but I now
blame my gout for my weight gain (although I'm not sure she sees my point of
view at all). Vicious cycle of pain and little or no exercise because of
pain I figure.
However, as I learned more about gout from this group, and was able to pass
this on to my partner, the understanding has grown (I think); although until
you've experienced the pain I figure someone without gout might feel like
those with it are playing the attacks up a bit, after all there's little
visible evidence of anything happening inside your joints.
I hope this is the last of it for us this time around, pattern for me seems
left toe, left ankle, right ankle, right knee and finally left knee (which
its in now).
Anyone else who's gout is causing strife in their relationships?

In the polls so far there is overwhelming support for posts to be restricted to
gout or closely
related topics.
This post is a reminder to please post about gout rather than other posters etc.
If you have
something you want to tell the moderator about other posters, email me at
xbeepx@....
This was not my day. I had a tire blow out on the freeway! I'm still not home
yet. And my
foot is killing me. Maybe I need allo :)
Hugs,
Pam

I first joined the group, a few years ago, when I had terrible
swelling in my right big toe. It was itchy and very tender to the
touch. It seemed as though all indicators suggested gout. Bloodwork
came back negative, although it was taken from the arm, not at the
site.
I've done my best to excercise and to drink a lot of water and seem to
have overcome the most of the symptoms (- cross my fingers).
Is this a common thing for symptoms to be there for a few months and
then to subside for long periods of time?
The only thing that i really do differently is not drinking as much
wine.
Comments or ideas?

Mike Harris takes everything he does not agree with and trashes it.

I have been gout free for 10 years without drugs at all. Prior to that I was on Indocine, cholchcine, and Allopurinol from 28 to 43. Between 38 and 43 my gout came back with a vengeance while on all three drugs and the attacks would not stop. I do not know how many here have been on these drugs for the amount of years I was but these drugs almost killed me (ulcer's, enlarged liver, hepatitis from allopurinol, high tryglicerides, high LDL cholesterol) and eventually stopped working completely. The doctors I was seeing had know idea how to stop my constant gout attacks and said I should go on SSI at 43 years old! Then I went all natural with herbs and vitamins only and have been gout free for 10 years (did have a couple of small episodes due to antibiotic use) but nothing like both knees in a full blown attack while using all three drugs to no avail. I will give you a daily diet of what I eat now and stay gout free.

Breakfast: cottage cheese, sour cream, (with salsa on top) raw oatmeal with real raw honey on top and a glass of 1% milk, fresh fruits (pineapple is good for gout as well as cherries).

Lunch: varies from pizza with meats, subs (including S&C), hamburger hold the bun, occasional fries (foods fried in veg oil very bad) soups, BLT's, coleslaw, salads, steamed shrimp, chinese food, tuna fish, etc.

Dinner: Bake potato (lots of sour cream) & steak 3 times a week, baked chicken, ham / kale and potato (boiled), all you can eat king crab legs, steamed oysters / clams, baked fish, spaghetti and meatballs on wheat pasta, veggies, etc. I even have a full bacon and egg breakfast every weekend.

What I try to stay away from is processed sugars, fried foods in any kind of oil, breads (especially white), lunch meats, hot dogs, soda (once a day), drink (booze) only on weekends.

I drink 3 / 24ounce bottles of water everyday, which I carry at all times with me. Drinking fast does nothing for Gout because it does not hydrate the blood properly. Chlorine is very bad for a gout sufferer so I also cook with bottled water.

I think I live with a very normal diet and gout free without prescription drugs.

I have tried to give some of my experience to this group and give some knowledge about gout I have learned along the way. Mike ridicules everything I have said, when I was just trying to give everyone some other options.

Just today someone said soymilk, I would have to disagree with soymilk, and say the lowfat milk is better than soymilk for a gout sufferer and point to the study made by Harvard University about low fat dairy and how it helps with gout attacks (which I copied and pasted in an earlier post. Please look at this site about soy products: http://www.htnetwork.org/articles/article/1412758/14164.htm

If I give some useful information and Mike shoots it down with a sarcastic comment, then those that may benefit from what I have to say have had the information I gave compromised. I then back up what I say after Mike shoots it down only to get a return comment of sarcasm in a school yard manor.

I'm going to let through some posts now about Mike, since a post about
him yesterday slipped through the moderation process and in fairness I
should allow for today's points of view as well.
But after these are posted, which should happen in a few minutes if
the technological gods are with me, please send your comments about
other posters to me at xbeepx@... or to the posters themselves
(they can then decide whether to answer you and thank you, answer you
and disagree with you, or to add you to their spam blocks and never
hear from you again!).
The reason for this is that, so far, members of this group have
overwhelmingly asked for posts to be about gout.
Some of you who posted about Mike appear to have strong feelings about
the type of posts that should be allowed in this group, and so I
remind you again to vote on the guidelines in our Polls section.
Hugs,
Pam

Hello board,
I hobbled in last July with all of the symptoms reported by gout
sufferers in my right big toe. Not wanting to suffer the
consequences of pharmaceutical drugs I went with the natural remedy
market. I had subsequent attacks each of the two following months
that were much lower in intensity and duration.
Some of the things that seemed to help, and none of it overnight,
were;
Cherry juice, diet (no rich meats, alcohol, sugar, the usual), proper
hydration, and the herbal supplement peddled as _____ (I did not
include the name so as not to be accused of peddling anything). And
Prayer.
Ibuprofen, in the form of alleeve definitely helped when the pain was
too much to bear.
Natural pain remedy supplements, and I forget the names of them all,
didn't help me at all. It was definitely alleve or Naproxin for me.
Urycryl, supposedly a gout cure, didn't help me at all either. Also
a magnetic anklet seemed to do nothing for me, although I wear a
magnetic necklace that does wonders for pain I used to suffer in my
neck.
There were a few things which I couldn't distinguish if they helped
or not such as; celery seed, baking soda, bromeline, shark
cartilage.
I went on an intense low carb, no sugar diet (used that awful
vegetable glycerine instead, yuck! But you get used to it and after
a while you will find it sweet) soon after the gout attack. I
stopped drinking milk and started with soy. Also I used the colon
cleanse supplements offered in many natural remedy stores, followed
by probiotics. Once the pain was gone I started a serious exercise
regimen. I lost 20 pounds and my gout attacks went away, thank God!
Here lately I find myself slipping into my old habits. Eating sugar,
meats, and other junk. Also, I am slipping on the exercise
schedule. I realize Gout season is almost upon us so I better clean
up my act. I am not sure what exactly in the shotgun approach I used
helped out the most, but I offer my experience here to all of you in
the hope that you will find something helpful there for you as well.
Best regards,
E.

Do any of you have pseudogout, by the way?
http://www.hmc.psu.edu/healthinfo/pq/pseudogout.htm
Hugs,
Pam

There have been a lot of posts about group process etc. The five
proposed guidelines for the future moderation of this group are up for

Pam,
This is the last message from Mike Harris that I want to see.
His logical arguments are usually well-intentioned and helpful, but he just
can't seem to hold back from offensive personal remarks as some kind of juvenile
puit-down at the end of a message.
I had assumed that you were tutoring him off-line about this behaviour, or that
he would have read and understood the new guidelines. If so, it has not worked.
Please remove him, or I shall go.
This message is intentionally copied to the list for publication.
Chris Haynes

There are FIVE proposed guidelines. Each has its OWN poll, so we can
tell how many voters were for the guideline and how many were against.
If you want to see that particular guideline implemented, vote YES.
If you do not want to see that particular guideline implemented, vote
NO. If you are neutral about one, don't vote on that one.
If you have questions, ask them here in the group for the quickest answer.
The polls go until May 11, and are here:

All guidelines which receive equal or more YES votes than NO votes
will be used to moderate postings in this group starting May 11, 2006
at whatever time these polls automatically close. Posts that do not
meet the guidelines approved by the group will be sent back to the
poster with suggestions for alteration to fit the guidelines and to
resubmit the post.
Vote now on the guidelines YOU want for posts to this group! Go here

Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
gout group:
Please vote YES or NO on each suggested guideline for postings to this Gout
group. Many thanks to Terry for suggesting these. Guidelines which receive a
majority of YES will be implemented immediately following the poll. Thank you in
advance for participating! Fifth guideline: "No commercial messages. This is
not a marketing tool; the mailing
list is strictly for gout sufferers to exchange information." Would you like to
see this guideline implemented for gout group posts?
o YES
o NO
To vote, please visit the following web page:

Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
gout group:
Please vote YES or NO on each suggested guideline for postings to this Gout
group. Many thanks to Terry for suggesting these. Guidelines which receive a
majority of YES will be implemented immediately following the poll. Thank you in
advance for participating! Fourth guideline: "Postings must be in English. We
won't be grammar or spelling
Nazis, but if there are enough grammar or spelling mistakes to get in
the way of clarity, the posting may be rejected." Would you like to see this
guideline implemented for gout group posts?
o YES
o NO
To vote, please visit the following web page:

Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
gout group:
Please vote YES or NO on the each suggested guideline for postings to this Gout
group. Many thanks to Terry for suggesting these. Guidelines which receive a
majority of YES will be implemented immediately following the poll. Thank you in
advance for participating! Second guideline: "Postings must be clear and
comprehensible." Would you like to see this guideline implemented for gout
group posts?
o YES
o NO
To vote, please visit the following web page:

Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
gout group:
Please vote YES or NO on the each suggested guideline for postings to this Gout
group. Many thanks to Terry for suggesting these. Guidelines which receive a
majority of YES will be implemented immediately following the poll. Thank you in
advance for participating! Third guideline: "Postings must be civil and polite.
No bad language, name-calling,
or flames." Would you like to see this guideline implemented for gout group
posts?
o YES
o NO
To vote, please visit the following web page:

The following gout poll is now closed. Here are the
final results:
POLL QUESTION: Apple Cider Vinegar
CHOICES AND RESULTS
- It Works Great - I Recommend It!, 2 votes, 6.45%
- It's Just OK., 0 votes, 0.00%
- It Did NOT Work For Me., 5 votes, 16.13%
- I think You Should Avoid It., 0 votes, 0.00%
- I Did Not Try It., 24 votes, 77.42%
For more information about this group, please visit

The following gout poll is now closed. Here are the
final results:
POLL QUESTION: Clinoril (Sulindac)
CHOICES AND RESULTS
- It Works Great - I Recommend It!, 1 votes, 6.25%
- It's Just OK., 1 votes, 6.25%
- It Did NOT Work For Me., 2 votes, 12.50%
- I Think You Should Avoid It., 1 votes, 6.25%
- I Did Not Try It., 11 votes, 68.75%
For more information about this group, please visit

Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
gout group:
Please vote YES or NO on the each suggested guideline for postings to this Gout
group. Many thanks to Terry for suggesting these. Guidelines which receive a
majority of YES will be implemented immediately following the poll. Thank you
in advance for participating!
First guideline: Postings must be on topic, about gout and closely related
subjects.
Would you like to see this guideline implemented for gout group posts?
o YES
o NO
To vote, please visit the following web page:

Yeah, but if you let the tea sit for a few hours the sugar will
dissolve - unless the tea is already sugar saturated in which case
it will be plenty sweet. You don't find sugar crystals in your can
of coke - It's a false analogy.

That is because they (coke) do not use crystallized sugar (cane) Mike, read the can. The analogy was not that sugar (cane) would melt eventually (by the way cold tea will take a long time to melt it if ever) but that when uric acid is in a crystallized state in a joint it cannot be measured in the blood so get that past your eyes and into your head. Remember the uric acid crystals eventually melt ALSO otherwise we would always have a gout attack! I have had both knees in full blown attacks and my blood reading was below normal!! Also people develope crystals of uric acid at different levels, I may start to crysatlize at 8.5 mg/dl but another may go as high as 12mg/dl before having gout attacks.

I have also sent facts before that uric acid will not freely flow out through the kidneys if the pH of the urine is too acidic. The more acidic (pH) the urine it the less uric acid (NH2)2CO is disposed of by the kidneys because it lowers it ability to be dissolved and pass through safely.

Pathophysiology: The urinary solubility of uric acid depends on its concentration in urine and the urinary pH. At a pH below 5.5, nearly 100% of uric acid exists in an undissociated form. The 3 mechanisms responsible for uric acidârelated stone formation are (1) an acidic urinary milieu, (2) dehydration, and (3) hyperuricosuria. One or more of these factors may be found in patients with uric acidârelated calculi. Persistently acidic urine (ie, pH <5.5) is the most important factor predisposing patients with gout to the formation of uric acid stones. Monosodium urate may initiate calcium oxalate stone formation by the induction of heterogeneous nucleation or by absorption of certain inhibitors. Patients with hyperuricosuric calcium stones have a urinary pH of greater than 5.5.

Is that like a FRIENDLY GHOST? Say, when are you going to send me
the documentation of that 30% "fact" anyway? Or are you just going
to keep repeating it in the hope that the Gout Fairies will make it
true?

You know if you have know idea of what roll the friendly bacteria in our bowels play in health i.e. nutrient absorption, toxin removal, waste removal, allergies, immune system response, digestion, and a host of others then You sir are not as smart as you think you are!

Most uric acid eventually passes through the kidneys and is excreted in the urine. The rest is disposed of in the intestines, where it is processed and broken down by bacteria.

Hi everyone,
Thank you for a great site - have been having trouble finding good,
sensible, information on this subject.
Have been having a painful month long attack in my left foot (full
length of big toe) that showed up 24 hours after playing a strong game
of tennis (didn't feel like I injured it then though).
Had been holding on that it is turf toe or something but doctors are
hard line - "you have gout". My UA was tested 2 weeks ago at 6.5
mg/dl.
Is it usual for an attack to last a full month? Should I push for the
joint fluid test?
Is there any way to immobolize the joint with tape or something
allowing mobility, that has worked for others?
Appreciate the help - Paul King

Why is everyone so angry in this group? We are all in this together. I
am not a fan of holistic, herbal or spiritual healing but if someone
thinks it might work then who are any of us to deny them the right to
explore any possible alternatives. Hell if it works why not take the
sugar pill. "Where do i find this placebo you speak of doctor"? It
might be wise to adhear to the old adage if you don't have anything
good to say the don't say anything at all. And as far as the grammar
goes... who cares! My english may not be perfect but I can assure you
that my pain and experiences with gout are very real. It's appaling to
think that the members of this group would dwell on such petty issues.
If you don't agree with someones post just ignore it. That being said
I do agree that selling "cures" or "healing" in the forum is not
appropriate either. I hope this post doesn't fall on deaf ears. I
appreciate this group and the information it dispenses but lets try to
remember that we are all in this together. Please?

In an effort to make the job as moderator of this group simpler and
less stressful, I thought it would be a good idea to have some
established guidelines. If a posting needs to be rejected, it is
much easier to do so if you can point to an established guideline; it
will make it less likely for the rejected person to become personally
offended.
Here are my proposed rules. What do people think?
(And yes, this posting itself might be considered a violation of the
first rule, but I think discussions about the mailing list itself is
a "closely related subject".)
- Terry
* Postings must be on topic, about gout and closely related subjects.
* Postings must be clear and comprehensible.
* Postings must be civil and polite. No bad language, name-calling,
or flames.
* Postings must be in English. We won't be grammar or spelling
Nazis, but if there are enough grammar or spelling mistakes to get in
the way of clarity, the posting may be rejected.
* No commercial messages. This is not a marketing tool; the mailing
list is strictly for gout sufferers to exchange information.

Hi all, I am new to knowing I have Gout. I had a bad attack in my
foot about a year ago. My family doctor said it was Gout and I had
these little hard bumps under my skin on my foot. I then went to an
Arthritis Specialist and she said that I had some kind of Arthritis
attack but it probably wasn't Gout. So since she is the Specialist I
thought she must be right!
So my right knee has hurt me off and on for about 6 months and then
3 weeks ago it really swelled up and I took Vicotin for the pain. I
went to my family doctor today because my knee is somewhat better but
the pain is not going away. And I haven't slept a whole night in the
three weeks because it seems to hurt more in bed.?
My family doctor said today that it is definitely a Gout attack and
referred to my blood work that I get done 3 times a year for my
Cholestrol; the Uric Acid is above normal.
He gave me a prescrition for Allopurinol 300mg and told not to start
it until this Gout episode is over. Why?
My mother had Gout and suffered from it a great deal. She always got
it in her feet and I didn't know other joints could. So I never
thought my right knee pain could be Gout.
I am glad this group is here and I am going to take the time to read
back the posts and educate myself.
Rosa

Hi all !
I've been on allo for 6 months now and am almost gout free !
I had some bizarre attacks (in the sides of my feet, not as crippling
as before but sill VERY tender and painful) and my Doc suggested
upping my allo dose to 400 mg per day. Since then I haven't had a hint
of an attack, and even ate chicken livers in peri peri sauce last week
without damage ! :)
I changed my diet to a low GI one, avoiding the highest purine foods too.
I've started at the gym again too, doing low intensity stuff for a
while hoping increased exercise won't trigger gout.
So folks, you were right to tell me allo would work ! Thanks !
Its nice not to hurt. REALLY nice.

Hello all.
So April 15th 1999 was the day that i found out i had gout. I had
been through a battery of tests, including those for RA, Lupus,
Ewings Sarcoma, Other bone cancers...etc.
I was bummed, but still relieved that It was "just" Gout (which ran
in my family). In terms of medicine, I was started out on 100mg/day
of Allopurinol and (i forget the amount) of Colchisine...I was also
given 50mg of Indocin which within 24 hours made the swelling in my
affected ankle go away...
I was relieved to walk again with out pain which had been my
companion for 2 weeks while getting tested..
I had to get off the colchisine though, as I could not take the GI
effects. I was also starting to loose my hair from it.
Over the years, i have had mostly mild attacks that if i catch early
enough dont even effect my work.. I have only had one major attack
which required a cortisone shot in the joint for relief.
The hardest part was the diet LOL. My doctor said i had to give up
three major things in my diet:
1 Organ Meat (hey, i am jewish and love chopped liver, but can live
with out it.)
2 Alcohol (no biggie)
3 Shellfish (WTF ?? I am from Gloucester MA, i had a lobster
license.. No way)
So i gave up 2 out of 3 and if i do have the rare drink or
participate in a lobster eating contest, i drink anywhere from 32-64
of ounces of water to hydrate myself and that has seemed to ward off
the gout during my times of medical indiscretion..
Also, i have found that the hotter (spicy) the food you can
tollerate, the better it is. I have litterly eaten half a jar of
jalapenos when i have an attack and it works. But check with your
doctor before you try that one.
Take care and keep movin'.
Andrew

Aloha! I am going into my sixth week of excrutiating pain with this
terrible illness. I had suffered from 2 ulcers 3 yrs ago from meds
given to soothe a car accident injury and unfortunately the narcotics
ripped to holes in my upper gi tract. so when i finally could not take
the pain last week i went to er and they gave me 2 shots and prescribed
4 meds which caused severe runs bloating and the worst heartburn i have
ever experienced. I went back yesterday and they prescribed another
pain med and a gas inhibitor ($170 for these 2 meds yikes) I am feeling
somewhat better but am concerned for the long term and suggestions on
alternative meds????

Hi folks. My name is Sean. been diagnosed with gout last year. I have
been trying to control it with diet, cutting down on beer etc. Wasn't
doing bad til about 10 weeks ago. Had a real bad attack in the right
ankle, went to the docs who put me on diclofenic tablets to clear the
attack. Then after a month I was to go onto allopurinol (was hoping to
avoid that).
Then,after having no alcohol, had another attack 3 weeks later. This
time in the left ankle. That worried me so went back to the docs who
put me straight on allopurinol (100mg per day to start).
Now been on allopurinol for 3 weeks (built up to 300mg per day).
Stopped all alcohol and being a lot more careful what I eat.
I was the prime candidate.....36, overweight and drinking far too much
red wine,port and beer.My diet didn't really involve large amounts of
purine high foods but as I said I am watching more carefully what I eat.
Going to the gym on a regular basis and drinking lots of water.
Hope I can beat this thing coz as you all know it's blummin painful and
I can't do some of the things I want.
Regards
Sean

HI I AM A NEW MEMBER WAS DIAGNOSED WITH GOUT A WEEK AGO. I
FOUND OUT I AM ALLERGIC TO MOST PAIN MEDICATIONS BECAUSE I
CANNOT TAKE ASPRIN OR IBUPROPHIN BECAUSE OF MY ALLERGIES. THE
DOCTORS PUT ME ON VICADIN BUT IT DID NOT WORK TO WELL
RELIEVING MY PAIN.NOW I HAVE TO WAIT TWO WEEKS GO BACK TO THE
DOCTOR AND HAVE FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO GIVE ME. I THINK THE
FOOT PAIN AND THE LEG CRAMPS ARE HELL ON EARTH.NOT TO MENTION
WITH THE GOUT I ALSO HAVE FIBROMYALGIA.I WISH THERE WERE SOME
HERBAL REMEDY THAT I COULD TAKE.

enhances kidney function? or bogus herbal stuff again? any one with
respectable knowledge?

Hydrogen, not water you know H2O Hydrogen and oxygen are the only 2 components of water. Once they are separated the hydrogen can be burned and the by-product is water vapor and excess oxygen which we need more of on earth. Here is the kicker salt water works better at producing hydrogen. This is just one method, it can also be separated with a low voltage current, electrodes..... and probably other ways as well. The source is probably too cheap to get any attention, isn't funny how they work at getting hydrogen from fossil fuel and a converter (fuel cell) though?

August 31, 2005
WEST LAFAYETTE, Ind. - A novel technique for producing hydrogen from water and organic material has been found recently at Purdue University, a discovery that could help speed the creation of viable hydrogen storage technology.
Though the method has not yet been evaluated for economic feasibility on a large scale, chemist Mahdi Abu-Omar said it could offer solutions to several problems facing developers of fuel cells, which are looked upon as a potential replacement to fossil-fuel burning engines in automobiles. The technique requires only water, a catalyst based on the metal rhenium (REE-nee-um) and an organic liquid called an organosilane, which can be stored and transported easily.
"We have discovered a catalyst that can produce ready quantities of hydrogen without the need for extreme cold temperatures or high pressures, which are often required in other production and storage methods," said Abu-Omar, an associate professor of chemistry in Purdue's College of Science. "It is possible that this technique could lead to fuel cells that are safe, efficient and not dependent on fossil fuels as their energy source."
Abu-Omar's research team, which includes Purdue's Elon A. Ison and Rex A. Corbin, published their findings today (Wednesday, Aug. 31) in the Journal of the American Chemical Society.
Hydrogen is the most plentiful element on Earth and, once isolated, is a clean-burning fuel that produces neither greenhouse gases nor toxic emissions. Because hydrogen can be used for electricity production, transportation and other energy needs, many see a changeover to a "hydrogen economy" from our oil-based one as the solution to global energy problems. But before hydrogen can be used as fuel, it must be extracted from other substances that are often fossil fuels, and then stored safely in sufficient quantities. If these problems can be solved, hydrogen-powered generators, known as fuel cells, might replace internal combustion engines everywhere from electrical plants to cars.
Abu-Omar and his colleagues were not concentrating on these problems when they began studying organosilanes, a group of organic molecules that have been slightly modified in the laboratory. But as commonly happens in science, he said, a project often takes researchers in different directions than originally anticipated.
"Initially, we were concerned with finding useful catalysts to convert these silicon-based fluids into silanols, another type of substance that is valuable in the chemical industry," he said. "It's the sort of work chemists do all the time, and it's usually of interest only to other chemists. But sometimes the byproducts of conversions are as interesting as what you wanted in the first place."
Abu-Omar's team took a compound based on rhenium, a comparatively rare metal often obtained while mining copper, and added it to the organosilane in the presence of water. Over the course of an hour, the organosilane changed completely into silanol, leaving the water and rhenium catalyst unchanged. But the team also noticed there was a gas bubbling from the mixture.
"It turned out to be pure hydrogen," Abu-Omar said. "The reaction is not only efficient at creating silanol, but it also generates hydrogen at a high rate in proportion to the amount of water."
The team estimates that about 7 gallons each of water and organosilane could combine to produce 6 1/2 pounds of hydrogen, which could power a car for approximately 240 miles.

Hi All,
It's been a little over a month since I was diagnosed with gout and I
have been on the Allo since then. Yesterday a new attack started in
the night and working up to full hobble by 9am. Before I have posted
about my joint flexion theory (movement pumps the uric crystals out of
the joint) so of course gave it a go. Holding the end of the bed I
jumped on the spot for a minute (in tremendous pain). Like before the
first 30 seconds I can't take the full weight on that side, the other
leg does the brunt of the work and I gradually swap over.
By the end of the minute I could hop on the foot (still in pain). The
test eventually worked and after about 2 hours all pain was gone. This
amazed me, I thought that at least there would be an ache all day. By
evening it was all fine.
To qualify that I must add the above. The test was not carried out in
isolation. I had one colchicine tablet left and I took it. The doctor
told me to stop the allo during an attack. I also took one ibuprufen
and drank two pints of water an hour. In short all the methods that
have achieved sacrosanct status on this group, but none of the herbal
stuff. Also I have gout in my ankle, not the toe.
All I can say is that that particular combinination worked for me on
that particular day and worked well. I offer my happy experience to
the group for anyone else with an attack to try. I am happy that there
are no nut elements to it and am not trying to convert anyone to an
outlandish theory.
The only thing that concerns me is the possible damage to the inside
of the joint caused by jumping on sharp uric crystals before they are
flushed out. I cannot measure this damage, if any. It should be
weighed against the possible damage of spending all day, or several
days with the crystals rubbing there.
I also have to point out a Golden Rule. This Rule is so true that I
hope that no one tries to argue against it. Gout or no gout, the older
you become the less you should drink just before going to bed. The
bathroom light was hardly ever off.

Dear Gout Group:

Some here scream about anything being discussed here but the use of Allopurinol. When any alternative way of beating gout is brought up he screams show me the study, by what mechanism does it work, prove it. Well, there are some things that need no proof, there are some things that are just common since. Look for answers ask questions don't take their word for everything as gospel. Gout for most one of two things bad eating habits or maybe damaged kidneys. Kidney dialysis is no fun and it is on the rise as is diabetes so take a look at where you are now and how you want to be in 10, 20 or 30 years.
There is also the fact that the "powers that are in control of drug and information" do not want simple answers. Why would they it makes them zero money and makes them look like fools? Even when someone with common since brings to the attention of everyone a simple answer they say OK yea it odes make since, then bury it never to be heard again.
When did any of you ever hear about the fact the India sufferers with the lowest rate of Alzheimer's than any nation on earth? Someone asked why and proceeded to figure it out. Then there was a study done by UCLA with spices that are in use in India. Turmeric was found to have more benefits than just clearing plaque from the brain (thought to be the main reason for Alzheimer's) some of which was preventing skin cancer. I ask you when you have heard this and how much it was reported. The reason MONEY, there is little to no money is a natural easy to find and buy remedy. There is no money available to do big studies because there is no MONEY it for the drug companies or the powers that be.
This is not cynical this is a fact. Why do you suppose we do not here of the research on hydrogen engines and the stuff we do here is about hydrogen from gas? Water has only two components hydrogen and oxygen, guess what the powers that be do not want to invent something that will in essence burn water, why MONEY! Look it up there are engines that are developed now that can run on water, there is a simple process to separate hydrogen from water and burn the hydrogen to run the engine. You will not see it in the main stream why MONEEEEEEY.

Febuxostat versus Allopurinol for Gout

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To the Editor: The article by Becker et al. (Dec. 8 issue)^1^ includes an inaccurate and misleading statement regarding the^ comparison of 80 mg per day of febuxostat with allopurinol for^ gout. The authors state that "the rates of discontinuation were^ similar in the 80-mg febuxostat and the allopurinol groups but^ were significantly higher in the 120-mg febuxostat group than^ in the other two groups (P=0.003)."^
The authors do not present a statistical analysis comparing^ the rates of discontinuation in the 80-mg febuxostat group with^ those in the allopurinol group. On the basis of the data they^ present, there was a significantly higher rate of discontinuation^ in the group receiving 80 mg per day of febuxostat (P=0.04 by^ Fisher's exact test).^
This result affects the conclusions of the authors. A higher^ discontinuation rate in the group receiving 80 mg per day of^ febuxostat implies that febuxostat was not as well tolerated^ as allopurinol. Febuxostat may be an advance in the treatment^ of gout, but we need to be clear and precise in interpreting^ the trial data regarding its use.^
^
Mark E. Lustberg, M.D., Ph.D.
York Hospital
York, PA 17405
mlustberg@...
References
1. Becker MA, Schumacher HR Jr, Wortmann RL, et al. Febuxostat compared with allopurinol in patients with hyperuricemia and gout. N Engl J Med 2005;353:2450-2461. [Abstract/Full Text]

I would like to know if there are others in this group who have gone
long stretches (6 months or more) without having an attack and what
they've done to achieve that milestone, i.e., diet, hydration,
medication, exercise, weight loss, etc.
It would be great if someone had a complete list of what foods you
can eat, what foods you absolutely have to avoid, no matter how much
you like them, how much water to drink daily, stuff like that..
Also, when you started taking allopurinol, did you have an attack(s)
at the start? (My biggest concern) I'm not wild and crazy about
taking a bunch of medications and the instruction sheet states that
you may have an increase in the number of attacks...don't know about
you, but I can't afford to be trying to nurse myself back to health,
since I drive for a living...
All are welcome to brainstorm on this topic...
Don

Research links low levels of fluoride and aluminum to Alzheimer's and kidney damage
In a study just published in the Journal of Brain Research the presence of low levels of fluoride in the drinking water of test animals, equal to the amount of elemental fluorine found in fluoridated water, caused damage to the tissue of the brain that the authors identified as a similar to the pathological changes found in humans with Alzheimer's and other forms of dementia.
While the purpose of this study was to assess the factors that enhance or inhibit the [INLINE] bioavailability of aluminum and its effects on the nervous system, the study looked at the effects of aluminum-fluoride and sodium-fluoride separately.
The authors report, "Histological evidence of glomerular distortion and other signs of kidney disorder were found in animals in both the aluminum-fluoride and sodium fluoride groups..." . .
"While the small amount of aluminum-fluoride in the drinking water of rats required for neurotoxic effects is surprising, perhaps even more surprising are the neurological results of the sodium-fluoride at the dose given in the present study (2.1 ppm). (the amount used to achieve 1 ppm of elemental fluorine used in fluoridation).
"Fluoride has diverse actions on a variety of cellular and physiological functions, including the inhibition of a variety of enzymes, a corrosive action in acid mediums, hypocalcemia, hyperkalemia, and possibly cerebral impairment."
The authors summarize, "Chronic administration of aluminum-fluoride and sodium-fluoride in the drinking water of rats resulted in distinct morphological alterations of the brain, including the effects on neurons and cerebrovasculature."
While there are numerous studies linking fluoride to increased risk or hip fracture, cancer, genetic bone damage, bone pathology and dental fluorosis, as identified in July 1997 by the union which consists of all the scientists and other professionals at the Environmental Protection Agency, Washington DC, this study adds further definition to a series of recent studies that have illuminated fluoride's adverse neurological impact and have anticipated the results from this research that focuses on the hippocamus region of the brain, and interaction with other neurotoxins.
In the "Effect of Fluoride on the Physiology of the Pineal Gland", 1994, the author J. A. Luke suggests that fluoride also effects the gland in the brain that produces melatonin, which has been established as critical to those people suffering from sleep disorders.
The follow-up question should be obvious: In light of this scientific evidence, it is in the best interest of our nation to continue a public policy -a public policy that has already been rejected by 98% of Europe - that forces each man, woman and child to ingest a known cumulative neurotoxin, which is added to our water supply. With no control over total intake from all sources, or variances in susceptibility?

Well haven't posted in a while. But , my husband has gout extremely
bad and his dr has used him for a book to be published. Pics of the
tophi and all. He has recently had a episode that we thought were
kidney stones and I had to call the squad to get him and come to find
out it was really a ruptured bowel and holes in the large intestine.
So he had emergency surgery and had the part of intestine removed and
the bowel partially removed and a colostomy bag attached. Then 6 days
later he had to have another emergency surgery and it entailed in the
large bowel being removed and the small left there. More of the large
intestine removed also. Was on tube feeding and all kinds of things
for 16 days. The dr said that the narcotics for the gout has caused
bad constipation and it went through the wall to the intestine and
caused this. He lost a total of 40 lbs in those days also. While in
the hospital he had to have a lasix shot of 10 mg and that is a no no
for gout people. But he gained 17 lbs of fluid in 1 night so it had
to be done. They had to stop his gout meds before first surgery and
that has hurt him . Had to give a unit of blood also. Now home trying
to get all the gout flair ups gone. It is all over him. shoulder,
arm, hand, leg knee ankle and hurting too bad to walk. So,beware if
you are in the hospital and you have to stop meds it will make a
problem for your gout in the end. And the constipation is a bad thing
so take care of it. Just a warning to you all. Carla and Lonnie

I was wondering if anybody takes anything for joint relief and to
repair any bone/cartilage damage done from an episode of gout?

Aspirin was used successfully for years and years without the knowledge as to why it worked. So just because there is not a biochemical study on an herbal does not mean it is snake oil. However I do believe Mr. Tam is up to something more than just trying to help with alternative gout information.

Aspirin works. Willow bark works; it is available as herbal medicine and clinical trials find it effective against osteoarthritic pain. The old NSAIDs work. Chemical analysis brought more knowledge about what are working - chemical molecules whose structures are known precisely. However, for seven decades physiological and pharmacological knowledge of the old NSAIDs did not advance much beyond that of willow bark. Both remained on the empirical and phenomenological level. People knew from experience that aspirin worked, but lacked scientific knowledge about how it worked and why it worked like its cousins. New York Times Magazine aptly called it in 1966: "The wonder drug nobody understands."

Hi everyone,
I hope you are all feeling better than I am physically right now. I'm
not completely sure whether it's lupus, fibromyalgia, or one of my
other autoimmune diseases that is acting up, but I don't have a joint
that isn't screaming out in pain. My doctor thinks it's actually the
Hashimoto's thyroiditis this time and I'm to double my thyroid dose.
Anyway, I don't have a lot of energy, and I want to start shaping my
life around experiences that are positive and bring joy. I care a lot
about the groups I moderate, and for the most part I get about an
equal amount of thanks and of criticism for them, so I feel there is a
balance and I am making a positive contribution by continuing this work.
However, this group is an exception. There are no thanks and the
criticism is overwhelming at all times. I dread my email box every
day at this point.
There seem to be two recurring issues with my moderation that I have
been unable to resolve to bring satisfaction. One is the ongoing
debate between those who prefer Western medicine and those who prefer
alternative remedies. I've certainly encountered this before in other
support groups, particularly the local in-person groups I have run
since 1986, but certain members of this group seem more focused on
picking on me (in email) for allowing the "side" they are NOT on to
post than on working towards a healthy group process. In general, my
goal has been to allow both sides to post what they have to share but
also allow rebuttals, in the interests of healthy debate, but as long
as there is personal animosity towards me as a moderator this is not
going to work well. I am therefore wondering if a different moderator
would solve this problem.
The other issue is that there is a vocal group of people who miss the
former group members Arnold and Walter and blame me for the fact that
they left. I received a lot of complaints about both of these posters
when they were here, but now I am receiving a lot of complaints about
their absence. Although I long ago told them both that I was sorry
they were leaving and that the welcome mat was always out for them, I
can't force them to return. Perhaps they would return if there were a
moderator change.
Therefore, I am looking for level-headed, intelligent, caring persons
to act as guest moderators (so I have time to get feedback on how they
are doing) and eventually take over the moderation of this group. If
you are interested, please email me at xbeepx@....
I do care about this group and it will be kept open and running by me
until a moderator is found that pleases the majority :)
Hugs and hope you are all feeling ok,
Pam

Just a thought to all about heavy metals that end up in the liver and brain. If it is bad for the underarms I am sure we should reduce the amount we eat. Normal table salt is washed on a bath of aluminum silicate to prevent it from caking. Perhaps sea salt or kosher salt is something to use instead of processed salt. A healthy liver is needed for proper uric acid levels in the blood. High Aluminum concentration in the brain have been linked to Alzheimer's also.

1. Antiperspirants: The Cancer Connection?
A new report raises the possibility that the aluminum salts contained in many underarm deodorants can increase the risks of breast cancer.
Metals including aluminum salts and cadmium have recently been shown to exert estrogen-like effects, while some also promote the growth of breast cancer cells in the laboratory, reports Dr. Philippa D. Darby of the University of Reading in the United Kingdom.
Darby's own research has shown that aluminum salts increase estrogen-related gene expression in human breast cancer cells in the lab.
And she believes it is very possible that aluminum salts and other inorganic estrogen-related compounds can further disrupt normal hormonal signaling within the breast.
She is particularly concerned about aluminum because is applied to the underarm, close to the breast, and left on the skin. Studies have demonstrated that aluminum salts can penetrate human underarm skin even if it is unbroken.
Darby said people can cut their exposure to cadmium by quitting smoking.
"The answer for aluminum is to cut down on or cut out application of antiperspirants under the arms and around the breasts," Darby added.
"I stopped using underarm cosmetics 10 years ago when I first starting thinking about it all," she said.
"I wash with soap and water twice a day and no one has yet complained."
Dr. Darby's paper appears in the "Journal of Applied Toxicology."

Tom Tan:
You attempt to sell Snake Oil. I see three posts from you on this list,
both pushing this. Unless you are willing to discuss the biochemical
action and cite studies by accredited and universally accepted medical
establishments supporting your "cure" I would suggest that your posts
fall under "con artist" rather than the guidelines of theis group:
"This list is for patients, family, friends, health professionals, and
any others who are interested in discussion of gout."
Were it my choice, you would be banned from membership from this group.
As it is, if our moderator continues to allow you to post, I will
continue to rebut.
I believe that there's a special circle of Hell reserved for people who
try to profit by selling useless "cures" to folks with incurable
diseases.
--
Mike Harris
Austin, TX
1995 Toyota Tacoma 2WD 2.4L
1987 Toyota Corolla Liftback FWD 4AF 1.6L DOHC
1963 4WD Willys Wagon SBC conversion
1984 Sovereign 17 "Gettin' Short" (Trailer Sailor)

I'll take that as a vote of confidence, prj.
And, opc, if you'd care to visit Texas from PNW you'll find out that we
are in fact a bunch of limp wrists who couldn't *possibly* be as
sports-oriented as yourself. <G
--
Mike Harris
Austin, TX
1995 Toyota Tacoma 2WD 2.4L
1987 Toyota Corolla Liftback FWD 4AF 1.6L DOHC
1963 4WD Willys Wagon SBC conversion
1984 Sovereign 17 "Gettin' Short" (Trailer Sailor)

Hello, I am new to group and arrived here by typing gout into a goodle
search. I am at wits end. I have arthritis and now this. I have been
taking pain and imflamation medications for quite some time now for the
arthritis. I have no feeling in my feet now except for heaviness and
numbness. Gout was confirmed a week ago and the doctor put me on
indomethacin 25mg (take two twice a day) and it was giving me heartburn
so the doctor put me on ranitidine 150 mg twice a day to stop the
acid. I have been taking hydrocodone 7.5/acetaminophen 500 mg for
pain. Since last week confirmed gout the doctor put me on allopurinol
300mg and a potassium supplement. I take three blood pressure
medications (terazosin 2mg, atenolol 50mg and hydrochlorothiazide 25
mg. I sometimes think the medication is causing the gout and my other
health distress. I am not the doctor so I do as I am told. I get so
depressed about the unrelenting pain and suffering. Anyone else take
or have taken all these meds?

How many of you had your gout diagnosed my joint fluid examination? My dh won't go to the doctor because he doesn't want a needle stick.

Interesting article.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/fishman/2006/uric_acid.html

Hi:
So you are saying drinking a few cocktails has no direct correlation to
the flare up of gout? Just wondering if I will ever be able to drink a
cocktail or two in the future. I've had gout for approx. 1 year now
and its under control. However, I just wanted to avoid what would
cause it to flare up in the future.
Thanks,
Cheryl

New the the group but unfortunately not new to gout.
For the past 6 years or so I've had flair ups from mild to severe. It
started in my ankle so wasn't diagnosed until last year when it hit my
big toe. The first doctor for my ankle said "treat it like a sprain
with ice, compression and elevation. The next doctor prescribed
celebrex and it was like a miracle. I could literally walk without
pain the next day.
When the big toe hit last year, the doctor said "no more celebrex, not
enough is known and there are other NSAID's" (CRAP!) Went through
about 3 or 4 of them before I got to Naproxen which worked. Not
nearly like celebrex.
Around the beginning of Feb, I got a bad attack in my ankle that the
Naproxen wouldn't put a dent in. I went to a new doctor last week
that would prescribe celebrex. I went to fill it and the insurance
said "NO!" (CRAP CRAP). The doctor gave me free samples and the next
day I was pain free in that ankle!. THEN the big toe on the other
foot got it bad. The kind of bad that brings a grown man to tears.
And this happened while I was taking celebrex... Now (3 days later)
the pain has subsided but my whole foot and knee are VERY swollen.
I've never had swelling like this in multiple joins (foot and knee).
When this one hit it seemed to effect the big toe and the ankle at the
same time so the whole top and botton of my foot was in that "gout"
pain and my knee was tender (which could have been from limping from
the earlier bout on my other foot).
Thanks for listening and if you have any advise for the swelling
please let me know. Icing it seems to make it worse for some reason.
Keith

Is drinking kefir beneficial for the prevention and treatment of gout?
Euda

Hello,
Is drinking kefir beneficial for the treatment and prevention of gout?
Euda

Hey all,
New gouty poster here.
I started taking allopurinol about 6 or 7 months ago and at the same
time my rhumatologist had me take prednisone for the attacks i was
getting both prior to and while starting the allo. I am now almost off
of the prednisone (taking 4mg a day soon to go down to 3) and have had
a few flare ups lately that have been way worse than anything I have
experienced while taking the allopurinol. I am currently on 450mg of
allo and I guess I am just wondering if anyone else out there has had
the similar experience of getting attacks while on this much
allopurinol for this long. Nothing out of the ordinary as far as diet
goes and I have drastically increased my water intake over the last
couple of months (up to around 6-8 glasses a day). I do realize that
coming off the pred can cause flares but i was pretty much asymtomatic
before starting to come down on it.
Any info would be greatly appriciated.

Hi
I am very new to groups so would be grateful for some pointers on best
practices and protocol.
I am a gout suffer and have been since my early 20's, I am know 36.
I am in the middle of a severe attack of gout in my left big toe and
left ankle, this attack as lasted early 3 weeks. My GP only ever
prescribes me NSAID normally Dicofenac. Although this caused mayor
stomach problems and internal bleeding, so unfortunately can't take
NSAID at the moment. I have been told that Cherries and celery seed
are a good alternative, but so far no sign of improvement.
Can anyone please advise on other possible treatment.
Thanks
Darren

Hi, I'm a new member here, and have been reading up on the recent
posts. I wonder what you all eat when going out to restaurants, whether
it'd be fast food (i.e. Wendy's) local diners or "fancy" restaurants?
Just trying to learn to eat right! Thanks.
Billow

Would baking soda be detrimental to those with high blood pressure or heart disease?

After my last gout attack I finally dug out the name of the
rheumatologist my local doctor gave me about eight months ago and made
an appointment.
Up until my last attack I was gout free for nearly a year, I even got
back into serious excercise, riding 100 miles a week to work and back.
However, in my experience the longer between attacks, the worse they
are when they arrive; this one was a STINKER!
At one point I had it bad in both big toes, both ankles, one knee,
really bad tendonitus, and I was generally feeling pretty ill, and
practically crippled, depressed and dour. My old 50mg Diclofenac
helped, but not that much.
When it was largely over (after about four weeks) I went to see the
rheumatologist. He's taken a blood sample and started me on 300mg
Allopurinal once a day, with two 25mg Diclofenac a day (although I've
been taking the 50mg 'emergency' ones he also prescribed this week as
ankle pain was still a problem).
Walked to the shop upright for the first time in a long time this
morning.
The only thing I've really noticed so far was that a whole layer of
skin seemed to come off the back of my hands in tiny white flakes, and
I'm feeling less 'fuggy' and more lucid.
Got to see the rheumatologist again in eight weeks to see if he needs
to adjust the allopurinol dose, but hopefully that's the end of my
gout nightmare for good.

Helo Group,
My name is Tom. About 2 months ago I was sitting in a restaurant
with my girlfriend waiting for our food to come when all of a
sudden, seemingly from out of nowhere, ZAP! I thought that for sure
my knee must have seperated and the bone was crushing a nerve. That
was the only possibility to explain the pain. A few years ago, I
accidentially slammed my finger in a car door. My finger was stuck
in the locked door. I had to reach around get the keys out of an
opposing pocket, unlock and then open the door. The pain that I
came to know as this thing called gout was similiar. Sitting in
that restaurant, I started screaming. Everyone stopped eating. One
woman came over, got down on her knees and started praying. "oh,
dear lord, please don't take this man yet, he seems too young".
Yup, we both thought that I was gonna die. I had my girlfriend make
a bee line to the closest ER. After x-rays, they proclaimed that
there was nothing wrong that they could see. 4 doctors later, I have
collec